Curse

unholy_VI · Oct 18, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Mostly I'm talking about the keys and saltspray. 4-4-4 just doesn't work. That doesn't mean it isnt still played. Here is why:

1) It makes sense. 3 groups going around take 3 times as many points as one group.
2) The teams are automatically organized that way.
3) Someone is always shouting '4-4-4!' at the start of every match.
4) It USED to work very well most of the time.
5) EVERYONE knows that getting in one big group is noobish.

Tonight I played in 4 AB games that were very much like the 3 or 4 I played last night, and the ones the night before. I'm Kurzick. we go out like good little soldiers 4-4-4. the luxons come out and take the first points on each side then start heading to the middle. before long we are a couple of shrines ahead but losing in the score. this is because the group of 12 instantly slaughters any 4 person group that it finds. a little later it's even worse. they have moved up to the shrine in front of our base, not totally together but within about a minimap of eachother.

now the second phase begins. our 4-4-4 has now degenerated into 1-1-1-2-3-1-1-1-1 as people die and wander around dutifully trying to find 'their' group. most of them don't make it much past whichever gate they try to sneak out. the other team by now controls 5 or more points and their army has swelled from 12 to 42 (assuming they have 3 minion masters). About this time someone from our team starts whining over the general chat about 'noob mobbers'. Someone on team chat ventures that killing their minionmancers might be a good idea. Nawwww! I've only been telling people to call out the names of the minionmasters and keep them killed since 30 sec or so BEFORE the game started.

so we lose 150 to 500 or so. the team vows that 'next time we'll beat those noob mobbers!' because this time they 'just got lucky!'

Umm, no. You won't. You won't until you stop calling people noobs who beat you by an average of 300 or so per game, and try to learn their tactics and adapt. I don't know why this strategy has been so easy for the Luxons to embrace and use while we Kurzicks are still stuck in the past but there it is. I'm hoping some defenders of 4-4-4 will argue these points (without resorting to 'ur just a noob I have 20,000 fame lolz 4-4-4 is teh pwnz u!!oneone' type flaming) and we can get some thoughtful discussion going and hopefully figure out some new tactics.

Solar Light · Oct 18, 2006, 04:35 AM // 04:35

not all luxons mob, the majority of my games i play the kurzicks mob, and many of those, we still win by chance or great amounts.

dont sterotype us into mobbers, both sides do it, but personal experence doesnt have the big picture.

Poison Ivy · Oct 18, 2006, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Mabye is certain individuals that's causing the problem, I tend to stay away from fights in AB, capping shrines is the fastest way to win.

Although certain people prefere rushing into the middle shrine and dieing there...over and over again.

Valkyrian · Oct 18, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Keys is a tough map for Kurz to win constantly. Thats because the rez shrine is easier to reach as a lux, therefor they already have a 4-3 cap advantage from the start. Also that map is easy to mob for them as well because most kurz groups will wrap around both sides to the back 2 monks then come back for the rez cap.
In doing so it tends to allow the lux to mob to the ranger cap, and then stay put until the kurz forget to cap and end up loosing badly.

But again, each map is different and gives advantage to an alliance in a different way... want a suggestion? First five minutes is key, be patient in your group and do not rush into other teams. Instead, find your way around them to the caps... this will allow you to slowly pick off opposing players while capping their backlines.

Amadei · Oct 18, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

Mabye is certain individuals that's causing the problem, I tend to stay away from fights in AB, capping shrines is the fastest way to win.

At the risk of outing myself as a jerk, I do exactly the same thing, and if my team decides joining the mass battle over the Saltspray Dragon Hatchling point is more important than capping, I leave them to it and find like-minded people to run with. There will usually be a couple of people on your side who want to cap, just like you, so find them and go with them.

I will never understand some people -- they see a giant blob of red dots (I'm Kurzick) and apparently, what they think is, "Boy! Eight Luxons and two minion masters! I BET I COULD TOTALLY SOLO THEM!" Whereas I see a giant blob of red dots and flee like the girl I am, living to cap another shrine.

Getting caught up in a big battle is the fastest way to lose, especially if you're behind already.

unholy_VI · Oct 18, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

so is anyone going to post on the topic?

also at the risk of hijacking my own thread im going to say something people are going to jump all over for sure:

Points is points. If your team controls 4 shirnes and mine controls three but I'm killing your team over and over in a big group while your team gets basically no kills becuase you're split up into so-called capping groups my team will win every game. when my group of 8 or more kills your capping group we will incidentally take an extra 10-15 seconds and cap whatever shrine your corpses are laying around before we move on.

Also let me point out that big groups kill the mobs faster AND have to stand on the point for less time to capture it. let me also point out that one single player working with his or her faction's mobs can cause a 2 or 3 or sometimes even 4 person capping group to take more time taking a point that it ends up being worth. I know becuase i routinely do this when i see small groups of enemy trying to cap a point as im runing back after a death or fleeing a lost battle. Try that vs 8 or 10 and see how it goes.

Please, lets steer a little bit back to 4-4-4 vs. big groups. I'm not hating on luxons as one person suggests. Not trying to debate what maps are better for what side either.

Avarre · Oct 18, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Question, why are teams of four walking into the maw of a 12-man group? It's not exactly hard to move away in AB...

A 4-man AB team needs to be able to move fast and cap points but also be able to beat another team of 4 in a straight fight, or be able to retreat with minor damage against a huge group. Acting like lemmings is the one way to lose against a mob.

The only advantages, really, of 4-4-4 is that those are the most efficient and powerful teams by ratio. A team of 6 is not 50% more powerful than a team of 4, because of team formation and co-ordination. Multiple teams of four are strong enough to survive easily while overcoming minor impediments, and still allowing a split to capture points or evade a mob.

Riotgear · Oct 18, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy_VI

5) EVERYONE knows that getting in one big group is noobish.

I think that's where you're wrong. :P

But anyway, the problem always seems to happen when people refuse to retreat from the rez shrines when the respawns are obviously too much for them. I wind up screaming it every match, because people are too idiotic to realize that an endless tide of respawns combined with a control bar that's going UP in their favor means it's time to get the hell out.

On Saltspray it's the same thing, except it's a big tug-of-war over the dragon roost.

Quote:

If your team controls 4 shirnes and mine controls three but I'm killing your team over and over in a big group while your team gets basically no kills becuase you're split up into so-called capping groups my team will win every game.

I have yet to see a game where a team with superior shrine control, even if it's just by one persistant point, has lost. The death counts in the long run wind up being so close that it's basically irrelevant, bleeding a point every 5 seconds is not.

Munanko Roha · Oct 18, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

The key in AB is capping shrines as quick as possible and avoid pointless fights. Fight if you have the upper hand, retreat if you risk death.

As pointed out by Avarre teams of 4 are good for balance between quickness and strenght (remember that for capping a shrine with no foe in 4 persons are the best number, less is slower, more is useless). One big team of 12 will move slow, it will cap not guarded (or guarded by bots) shrines like a team of 4 and in the end will be less efficient as long as it's not fighting against newbies charging in like mads thinking they can clear alone the whole mob...

unholy_VI · Oct 18, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

ok a few replies that are at least on the topic.

Now if i could get them adressing some of the points i've made it'll be even that much better.

No. your 4 person group does not cap as well as a group of 8+. I will point you to my last post for the reason why instead of letting myself get pulled into endless repetition.

Secondly in my hypothetical game where one team has less control points and wins, right it doesnt happenn. what does happen is a team being behind on shrines but more or less even on points then suddenly reaching the threshold where the enemy team is in total disaray and capping 6 or 7 points at the end for a big win. if your team is winning the fights and killing more your team will control more points. its unavoidable.

Finally,more time you spend running from a fight the more time you spend doing nothing useful. also you give up control of whatever area of the map you are on to the enemy to do what they want. gg. let everyone do that all game you lose period.

as to the idea of 4 being the 'good for balance between quickness and strength' whatever. groups of four in AB quickly turn into groups of three then groups of 2 then a bunch of people running around the confusion trying to find eachother. a big group is much easier to maintain because the members die a lot less and its just easy to see where it is to get back to it if you do end up dying. 4-4-4 isnt even doable past the first 30 seconds of the game so why bother with it?

Eroth · Oct 18, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Ppl bother with it because it's human nature to start with some plan or sturcture then let all hell break lose. I've been noticing this a lot in AB. I'm a luxon and what I'm good at is what I call tail-snipping. I basically trail the mob killing anyone left behind. And I usally kill the npcs on the base they capped, so that when my team comes along 10 or so seconds behind me we cap it. It's worked most of the time, but then U always have those cheaky noobs who c me and want to solo me. They come up, do some stupid emote, and then 6 seconds later they're on thier back and I'm running double time to catch up with the mob. Most of my builds are based around either solo-capping, tail-snipping, or anti-mobs for those places like the Canyon and Ancestral Lands, b/c we know and U know the Kurz always mob like magnets together, while the Lux split off into 4-4-4 maybe once or twice becoming 4-6/7-2/1

btw I'm a Lux.

Spura · Oct 18, 2006, 11:51 AM // 11:51

It depends. Often I see I have build advantage, and try trading my death for several luxon ones. Also most of the time I play fragile assassins which suck at capping shrines, so I just try to pick of stragglers.

l Artemis Entreri l · Oct 18, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

spura have u ever ran a full assasin capping grp?

try it....ull cap fine

Maria The Princess · Oct 18, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

we see a mob

we go the other way to cap a shrine

mob goes ahead

we go cap whatever mob caped and they dont even know that while they caped 1 our team only caped 2

The Fox · Oct 18, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by unholy_VI

ok a few replies that are at least on the topic.

Now if i could get them adressing some of the points i've made it'll be even that much better.

No. your 4 person group does not cap as well as a group of 8+. I will point you to my last post for the reason why instead of letting myself get pulled into endless repetition.

Secondly in my hypothetical game where one team has less control points and wins, right it doesnt happenn. what does happen is a team being behind on shrines but more or less even on points then suddenly reaching the threshold where the enemy team is in total disaray and capping 6 or 7 points at the end for a big win. if your team is winning the fights and killing more your team will control more points. its unavoidable.

Finally,more time you spend running from a fight the more time you spend doing nothing useful. also you give up control of whatever area of the map you are on to the enemy to do what they want. gg. let everyone do that all game you lose period.

as to the idea of 4 being the 'good for balance between quickness and strength' whatever. groups of four in AB quickly turn into groups of three then groups of 2 then a bunch of people running around the confusion trying to find eachother. a big group is much easier to maintain because the members die a lot less and its just easy to see where it is to get back to it if you do end up dying. 4-4-4 isnt even doable past the first 30 seconds of the game so why bother with it?

IMO 4-4-4 is the way to start the match. Then merge together the surviving groups to take back their caps. Then as everyone re-groups, have something near a 8 - 4 split in which the 4 group caps quickly, while the 8 defends critical caps.

unholy_VI · Oct 18, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria The Princess

we see a mob

we go the other way to cap a shrine

mob goes ahead

we go cap whatever mob caped and they dont even know that while they caped 1 our team only caped 2

Really? you've found a way to disable the other team's minimap. ingeniuos. when i talk about a big mob i'm not saying everyone on the same spot obviuosly. more like within a minimap of the main spot. so sorry they are going to know exactly what your little team is up to and squish you at their pleasure.

But keep trying.

the guy that says start 4-4-4 then switch, thats really more like what im suggesting. cap the first points right outside all the gates sure. after that it should be a big group with the minionmancers and people there to heal them, protect them and get them bodies and a few people with build especially suited for soloing scout aournd for easy caps. but regardless they always know if they get in trouble exactly where they can run to get help. you don't have that in teams that try to stay seperate.

I like the snipping at the tail too. I do that with my elementalist. main thing is you need a way to get out quick. gotta love shadow stepping.

TheLordOfBlah · Oct 18, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

4-4-4 is good because its enough people to kill a shrine and works if you STAY AWAY FROM MOBS, which most people dont do.

moko · Oct 18, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

the problem is not the group of 12 being superior to a group of 4, its the 4 running into the 12 and committing suicide.

i often face big luxon crowds, like i care. i tell everyone to split up, run away, build groups again when they are safe and cap shrines. luxons will usually just stay at the rez shrines or just cap one by one while the kurzicks cap in x3 the speed.

so, just start telling everyone at the start of the match not to face a huge luxon mob - easy, really. the goal of it is, afterall, capping shrines, and not killing more than the other side. so basically, 4-4-4 is superior to 12-0-0 afterall.

sure, they might always chase one group of 4 and get it down, but the other 2 groups should just continue capping. over time, the luxons will give up, scatter, and by that kurzick is going to lead by a lot anyways. ;p

Franco · Oct 18, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

mmm so you think you know everything but you do realise

Etnaran keys is the map where luxons have the biggest advantage, its like Grenz frontier for Kurzicks and what Luxons do is

They cap the Necromancer shrine, (4), the other caps rez in front of the gate (4) and the other one caps Mesmers (4) then they all follow up to the next Rez shrine and then are (12), Now the Kurzicks instead of going around capping the warrior ,necro, and ele and mesmer shrine, they decide to all go for the rez because its a important shrine, (although most of them just go because they see mob), Ofcourse its a important shrine but doesnt mean you have to fight like mad to cap it, go around capping and wait for the Luxons to move. Theres a difference in AB, the real faction farmers for their guilds which know how to play, and the people that are just doing it to pass time or get some amber, its kinda like HA really, only I dont know why people havent started saying "Forming AoL group, must have title" yet.

As you know its like a unranked vimway group first time in HA probably dont know anything about running flags or holding altars.

so be patient , everywhere you go.